Talk:Arnett McMillan/@comment-197.89.18.94-20160219173623/@comment-197.89.126.169-20160227094617
OrigAnon @Citrus: I don't know if there's 'nothing to suggest'. I can't exactly think what narrative purpose having Arnett, Elizabeth, Ticy, André and Morrison react in the way that they did to Kazuya's Freezing has beyond implying that both boys were very distressed by what happened and that the girls felt violated and unnaturally submissive. I mean if feeling the 'Transcendent Will' means that they have to feel as if they have no free will and as if they automatically will do anything and give anything up for Kazuya, completely forgetting about any other emotional connections they have in life, then that's pretty worrying and suggestive of the idea that they're destined to be slaves to Kazuya and nothing else. Rather, I should ask, why would you say its not NTR? We have a situation where two girls (three if we count Ticy) are all in committed and intimate emotional relationships with two (three if you count Abel) boys. Though the level of commitment and intimacy between these three couplings differ (Elizabeth and André clearly having the most intimate and explicitly romantic one) we know from the main story and supplementary material that all three have what they consider to be exclusive, mutual intimate emotional relations with each other. Then in Chapter 196 and 197 Kazuya, a character with whom none of these characters have any sort of deep emotional connection with and definitely no romantic relation or interest at all 'dominates' the girls causing them to, as Elizabeth and Ticy say, 'feel as if they wish to surrender everything they are to him and simply become things for him to use'. This happens whilst their partners in concern and fear call out their names. Additionally, post it, they explicitly describe how the process involved a feeling of strong sexuality and also of overpowering submission, making Elizabeth at the very least (judging by her thought of 'but my heart belongs only to André) feel that it was an emotionally intimate violation of her feelings. What about it makes it not NTR? To be honest your mention of the 'Transcendent Will' again makes me really want to know then; what role or fate is awaiting all the non-Pandora and non-Kazuya human beings? To be honest though I don't really see how one can not read NTR vibes into those two chapters. I dislike it, but I fail to see how one can not say that their is an indication of it. Particularly in light of 202 seemingly ending on that image of Kazuya with Arnett and Elizabeth and others with no mention or indication that their Limiters will be involved. For me the emotional aspect of the relationship is really vital. I mean, to use an easy example, imagine me and my husband work together as a team and, in this line of work, part of what a team must do is share really intimate secrets with each other, expose ourselves in emotionally vulnerable ways to each other to complete our job. If we're like Elizabeth and André we've established a rapport with each other over years of cooperation and bonding, we are now comfortable to be intimate and exposed around each other because we've built emotional connections and lasting bonds. Then, one day, I'm told that I'm fired and my husband will from now on be repeating this process (except that now it involves a single individual who 'forces' this intimacy and makes my husband forget about me and want to become this person's slave and abandon all their own independence). How am I meant to feel about that after all I've been through with my husband? Now I'll defer and say you're probably right and that, of course, I seriously hope you're right. But at the same time I think there is no other way to read what happened in 196 and 197 except as having NTR overtones. I'm hoping, sincerely, that we will see the Limiter's gain some sort of boost to make their partnerships valid still and, at the same time, I'm hoping what occurred in 196 and 197 will be used to construct a larger criticism of the immorality of using people as 'things' in the same way as Luis' arc criticised the reduction of Satelizer to a 'thing'. It would be utterly tragic to me if every single partnership Pandora's and Limiter's have spilt blood and tears to form is wiped away in an instant to be replaced by sycophantic and 1-dimensional caricature's of Pandora's who can only think of how to please Kazuya. @Evee: Don't worry I don't think your rude. Short of directly insulting me or swearing at me I really won't take any offence, after all you're entitled to say you're piece and, to be honest, you're right. I get you say its ridiculous but, then, again, I ask what the narrative purpose of 196 and 107 including terrified expressions from Morrison and André when Kazuya says 'there may be side effects' is. I mean, for context, we should remember that André is a guy who literally doesn't even bat an eye at the prospect of his dying. He's so unafraid that he's smiling and talking even as he is literally feeling himself die. Yet here, in 197 I think, he's petrified. His expression is horrific. Which I can understand. Him and Elizabeth are incredibly close, they've been through so much, the idea that all that can be wiped away or that, to be fair more likely from André side, someone as proud and noble as Elizabeth can be made to feel as if she wishes to be an object for someone to use and not even want to be seen as a person, simply a slave, must be horrific. So if you say that there's 0 chance I just don't then get why the latest manga chapters purposefully give us an ability Kazuya has which can make any Pandora want to be his slave, an image of Elizabeth and Arnett amongst Kazuya's other primary harem girls as Gengo discusses something (I don't know what) and Morrison and André clearly looking like their about to breakdown in dread. That being said, I really, really, really don't want to believe or think that it will happen. Elizabeth and André are my ship, my primary ship, the one I really like and the one I really want to see succeed. I love the two of them. André is incredibly brave, even though he's incredibly weak, and Elizabeth is an incredibly noble character. I don't want to their relationship destroyed. I absolutely don't want that. To be honest though I share most of your sentiments. As for your last paragraph, hmm, that's a really good question. It actually makes me wonder myself. I definitely think I fear there's going to be NTR (I struggle to see why things were depicted in 196 and 197 the way they were otherwise) but its just a fear, probably irrational, but I can't deny it is there. I'll admit I think you're last line is a good point though, now that you've said it, I can easily see how I am maybe convincing myself of it. I suppose I just really am attached to Elizabeth and André as a pairing and, if I'm being honest, I know Elizabeth is the type of character who's often used as fodder for NTR/Mind Break type stuff. She's relatively popular, she has an endearing and intimate emotional relationship with a good guy and she's proud and haughty. The number of times characters like that in NTR genre stuff exist purely so as to have their eventual humiliation into some sort of slave who craves domination and cruelly taunts her former partner is depressingly common. That worries me since I really find André's relationship with her precious. Particularly after even in the main manga we've had development on the two showing how much they care for each other, I really don't want all that to become meaningless. Thank you for your assurance. I'll try to take it to heart. @Td: Well...yeah, I mean not the end of the world, but it would be really upsetting to me if Kazuya NTR'd everyone and made a harem of all the Pandora. It would be deeply, deeply troubling to me. It would be hugely misogynistic and see the degradation and dehumanization of the Pandora into doujin-style tropes of females who are always slaves to the 'dominant' enough person, it would turn Kazuya into a noisome Gary-Stu whilst destroying any spectrum of diverse emotional connections and relationships and shift the story into protagonist-centred morality and it would make it impossible for fans of Freezing Pair Love Stories to ever enjoy that series again. So yeah I think it would be a pretty big tragedy. I'm glad you can guarantee it won't happen though, really I am. Is Hiro Mashima the Fairy Tale guy? Or I'm not quite sure what you mean. Sorry. Look I'm just expressing my views on this and, when people engage me in conversation, I converse back. Honestly at this point I'd just really like to see some focus in the next few chapters on Morrison/Arnett, André/Elizabeth and Abel/Ticy. That and I'd like to know if all the partnerships forged so far are being disbanded.